Stealth Startup

Building the only software platform that helps brands exit the ROAS hamster wheel and get to 50% of budgets going to brand, which is the proven mix, but a faaaar cry from the 0-3% of budgets most brands are putting towards brand / top of funnel. 

The growth of your dreams lies in the gap between how you currently measure ROI and how you could be measuring it.

Co-Founder

Chubbies Shorts

Board Member

Loop

With a bunch of other people smarter than me, helped shape the initial product based on our needs and vision for what should exist.

Drata

Investor

Odeko

CaaStle

Cents

My own

Real Estate Investment and Development

Blend

Rutherford Investments

Private Equity

Cofounder of Chubbies + Loop Returns | Now, Marathon: A managed technology platform + bespoke services offering helping you exit the short-term direct-response hamster wheel to find your balance of Brand and performance

I cofounded Chubbies. $100M exit. 40% growth at 25% EBITDA margins.

But 5 years in, we almost died.

Why? We were addicted to short-term ROAS. Only investing where we could measure immediate returns. It worked until it didn't. Growth stalled. Nothing we tried moved the needle.

The problem: We'd stopped building our brand. We'd lost what made people love us because we couldn't measure its impact.

So we built our own measurement system. What we discovered changed everything:

Moving from 3% to 50% brand investment unlocked growth we hadn't seen since year one.

That shift saved our business and drove our acquisition.

Now I'm building Marathon - the software platform that finally measures top-of-funnel ROI. Because every brand deserves to escape the performance marketing hamster wheel that almost killed us.

Here's what Marathon does:

1. Quantifies future revenue from brand investments
2. Proves the ROI your CFO needs to see
3. Shows you the optimal brand/performance split (hint: it's not 97/3)

If you're stuck refreshing ROAS dashboards while growth flatlines, you're exactly where we were.

The difference? You don't have to guess your way out.

Apply for early access: marathondataco.com

Preston 🩳 Rutherford

CEO: I can't approve "brand marketing" spend in 2026 if I can't measure the return, even if it's needed to get out of stage 3

New CMO: i agree. i think brand marketing is bullsh*t

CEO: what?

CMO: when CFOs and CEOs hear "brand marketing", they think: unaccountable, expensive, and money wasting. the vocab's gotta change

CEO: you're not wrong

CMO: it's a classic story...team gets approval to do a "brand campaign". they go off, find an agency, create an expensive ad, and run it on tv. then they wait. ultimately, everyone ends up asking: so...what happened?

CEO: happening as we speak

CMO: then, that one-off attempt gets chalked up as a loss, and future attempts get rejected because of the sour taste left in everyone's mouths

CEO: just did that 10 minutes ago

CMO: let's fix that by orienting the brand conversation around the specific business outcomes we want

CEO: yas queen slay

CMO: your 3 associations with traditional, Mad Men style advertising has truth to it, so you're not off base

CEO: might be why we've adhered to short term revenue as the key definition of success for so long. the trauma from that show is real

CMO: same - was shooketh

CEO: i'm accountable to the board for delivering financial results, so everything this company does has to ladder up to that

CMO: and that's how we have to frame marketing

CEO: great. the main goal for 2026 is sustainable profitability

CMO: so let's drill down on the 3 business results that best accomplish that goal. first, do you agree that being able to discount less and not lose customers helps us get more profitable?

CEO: obvi

CMO: second, since you know how much higher the revenue-per-session of branded organic search traffic is, would you agree we want to increase it as much as we can?

CEO: lowkey getting interrogation vibes, but yes

CMO: and third, we want to be able to expand into wholesale and show up the way we want, right?

CEO: just spoke with another founder. it's their most profitable channel

CMO: finally, do you think the "product, discount, offer, and urgency-driven" creative we use accomplishes these goals?

CEO: you sly dog. i see what you did there. no, definitely not

CMO: now that we're on the same page, let's talk execu...

CEO: (interrupting) it's finally clicking. lemme freestyle on the mic for a sec

CMO: great (starts beatboxing)

CEO: like every goal we've accomplished as a brand, the tactics were never immediately obvious. we committed to a feedback loop and tried things to reach that goal. our approach was simple: do more of what works. for "brand", we were never clear on the specific financial results we aimed to drive, so we didn't have a feedback loop. attempts fell flat and were viewed as a failure. while specific tactics aren't immediately obvious here either, we're used to that. we'll apply the same process we've applied throughout our history

CMO: (happy tears) that. was. beautiful. didn't rhyme, and you didn't rap at all, but you got a grammy in my heart

Cofounder of Chubbies, Loop Returns, and now MarathonDataCo.com (AKA everything you need to transition to a balance Brand and Performance)

Chubbies Shorts did > $100M & > 20% EBITDA for the 9 months ended Sept 30, 2025. 

Rainer and the whole team is crushing it!!

New CMO: We're moving 50% of the budget to brand / top of funnel in 2026.  

VP Growth: Hell no. My ROAS will drop, and my bonus depends on hitting a ROAS target.  

New CMO: Not anymore. Your bonus is tied to two metrics:  
1. Total contribution dollars generated by the business (at 35% contribution margin).  
2. Contribution dollar lifetime value (rolling 30, 60, 180, and 365 days) for our owned business.  

VP Growth: wtf?! How can I own this?  

New CMO: Metrics aren't about individual ownership—they're team-driven. The real challenge is choosing the right ones.  

VP Growth: How do we know these are the right metrics? 

New CMO: The right metrics grow business health and fundamental enterprise value. If we increase these metrics, while keeping fixed costs flat, we become more profitable. Are they perfect? Maybe not. But they're miles better than short-term ROAS or new customers acquired, which have far less of a direct connection to fundamental business health when we increase those numbers.

VP Growth: How can you say that? 

New CMO: For ROAS, you can hit any number by:  

1. Spending less.  
2. Doubling down on branded keywords, existing customers, or retargeting.  
3. Running more discount events.  

But ROAS lacks incentives to drive incremental revenue—what actually grows the business—and says nothing about the cost to generate it. And for new customers acquired, there is no notion of customer quality. A massive sale drives high ROAS but attracts discount hunters who won't buy at full price unless we run bigger sales. Both of these metrics lack context on quality and long term profit, which is ultimately the fundamental goal of business. 

VP Growth: Ok, I'll buy that, but how can I be responsible for overall contribution dollars? 

New CMO: As a singular individual, you can't. That's why half of your budget will now be based on team performance. For you though, it'll drive you to make better decisions with how you spend our marketing dollars

VP Growth: What do you mean? 

New CMO: You're free from short-term ROAS pressure to pad stats and can focus on incremental profitable growth. You can step back and do the things you know are right to drive net new incremental demand (meaning: you would not have gotten that revenue if you didn't spend that ad dollar) even if it's low ROAS.

VP Growth: And the mythical purse string holders are bought in? 

New CMO: Yup - the CFO and board now understand that the real goal for our marketing investments is both short and long term incremental contribution dollar generation at the highest possible contribution margin. That was my one condition for agreeing to accept the offer to join

VP Growth: Well butter my biscuits, let's do this.  

New CMO: Please never say that again

3 minutes and 3 seconds. That's all it takes to learn from the best investor on why Brand is the most important driver of business value. If you're debating if, why or how investing in Brand building is right for your company, look no further than this compilation of Warren Buffett quotes from interviews over the last 50 years on why investing in Brand is the single most important thing you can do.

While in the day-to-day of operating a company, it can seem foolish to invest in this mythical, hard-to-define thing called "Brand".

However, if we listen to the most successful judge of fundamental business asset value over the last century, it's clear that a strong Brand is the most important thing.

Here are the 5 topics, the 5 takeaways and the best quotes from the video


5 Topics:

1. Why Brand is the most important moat 
2. Why Brand is the most important driver of business value, 
3. The tangible benefits of a strong Brand in terms of pricing power, 
4. Maintaining margin and shelf space in retailers, and 
5. How a strong Brand is the only thing that can fend of inevitable competition.


5 Takeaways:

1. Brands are Moats
2. Single Most important thing he looks for are defensible Moats
3. The main Moat is Owning a Position in the consumer's Mind
4. A durable moat, driven by a strong Brand enables 
 a) sustainable Pricing Power (AKA the ability to not need to discount)
 b) the best defense against competition 
 c) leverage in the Brand <> retailer relationship 
5. Ultimately, Brand is the best driver of durable Profits


The Best Quotes:

On Brand:
1. "Brands are moats" 
2. "A strong Brand is really potent stuff."
3. "[The Moat] can be because...of its position in the consumer's mind...that it has this moat around it."
4. "So you've got to protect a Brand, you've got to enhance it in every way. You've got to get a promise in people's minds that gets delivered that way."

On the Importance of Moats: 
1. "What we're trying to do is we're trying to find a business with a wide and long lasting moat around it, protecting a terrific economic castle." 
2. "In essence, that's what business is all about."

On Brand and Pricing Power:
1. "The single-most important decision in evaluating a business is pricing power. If you've got the power to raise prices without losing business to a competitor, you've got a very good business." 
2. “You can measure the strength of a business over time by the agony they go through in determining whether a price increase can be sustained.”
3. "It's not a great business when you have to have a prayer session before you raise your prices a penny."

On Brand as defense against competition from other Brands and retailers:
1. "The Brand has to stand for something in the consumer's mind because, in the end, the retailer may want to shift to a house Brand."
2. "I remember when Sam Walton sent me the first six-pack of Sam's Cola 20 years ago. And believe me, Walmart has plenty of power, but so does Coca Cola and the Brand."

Chubbies has done over $100M so far this year, increasing EBITDA margin > 50% YoY. Your classic overnight success that took 14 years. One of the many things they do so well to continually drive balanced, profitable growth where margins can * increase * over time is follow the 95/5 rule as well as any brand I’ve seen. 


However, for the first 5 years, I basically did the exact opposite of what the rule says. My loss is your gain, so here are:


1) Three things I learned about the 95/5 rule
2) Three ways you can update your thinking on the topic
3) Three things you can do about this right now


let's do it.


** Three things I learned about the 95/5 rule **


1. Only 5% of the people who see your content on a daily basis (AKA your potential buyers) are in-market to buy right now. That means 95% of the buyers you reach are out-of-market and won’t buy for months or even years. 


2. And, nope, no matter how awesome your direct response offer is, you cannot persuade the buyer to go in-market because they already have what you’re selling and won’t need a newer version any time soon. We don’t move buyers in-market – buyers move themselves in-market based on their needs.


3. All the direct-response conversion-focused dollars we spend are only relevant to the 5% of folks. This was especially humbling when realizing that ~95% of our spend allocation went to direct response (see reference above re: doing the exact opposite). 






** Three ways you can update your thinking on the topic ** 


1. Our goal is to increase the probability that the brand comes to mind when the buyer goes in-market, NOT to persuade the buyer to go in market. You can’t push buyers down a funnel, but you can, to quote Professor Jenni Romaniuk, “catch buyers as they fall”.


2. ""People largely use their memories when buying, rather than searching. Simply put, the brand that gets remembered is the brand that gets bought."" - John Dawes of the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute


3. Since marketing works by influencing future buyers, think about developing creative that gets noticed and gets remembered -- gives you permission to be bold, put on a show and have a little fun.




** Three things you can do about it right now ** 


1. Since we've all been so focused on optimizing the hell out of how we convert the 5%, we need to reacquaint ourselves with the 95%. Walk a day in the shoes of the 95% to develop the empathy needed to effectively speak to that person. 


2. Put together a plan to gradually shift your marketing investments to match the reality of the 95/5 rule. It could take all of 2024. No need to rush.


3. Take a day with your team. Remove all meetings. From a blank slate, think about what it means to do things that get remembered, that get noticed. What does it mean for your brand to be bold, to put on a show, and to have a little bit of fun? 


enjoy

CMO: we need to do a brand reset in 2026

CEO: wtf does that mean? like a new logo?

CMO: no. that'd be a rebrand. not what i'm talking about

CEO: then what?

CMO: first, let's define terms: the strength of our brand is ultimately measured in two ways: first, the customer acquisition we get when we turn everything off (e.g., ads, discounts, etc). second, our ability to raise prices (or reduce discounts) faster than the rate of inflation and not lose customers 

CEO: never thought about it that way. go on

CMO: the fundamentals of our business are weakening, even though we're growing revenue

CEO: well, we need growth

CMO: i know we don't like to talk about it, but if we turned off our facebook ads and our promos, our revenue would fall through the floor. it's been getting progressively worse over the last 6 years, and we're not acknowledging how big of an issue it is

CEO: i acknowledge that's an issue. i'm not as close to the marketing numbers, so what exactly do you mean?

CMO: over the last 6 years, the revenue coming from branded organic search traffic (removing spikes and short term influences) on our online store have actually been steadily declining

CEO: but we've been growing

CMO: yes, we've only been growing the revenue coming from paid channels. we've been spending ad dollars to fuel our growth. that's fine if the revenue coming from organic sources is also keeping up, but it's not

CEO: i don't follow

CMO: we've been chasing these topline revenue growth numbers that i've allocated all of our resources (ad spend, creative budgets, etc) to driving highly-measurable short term revenue growth. this became a red flag for me last week when our facebook ads stopped delivering for 2 days and we had the worst August week 3 in the history of the company

CEO: oh that's what happened?! i thought we had a bug blocking checkout or something. site was working fine?

CMO: site was fine

CEO: yikes. so do you now think our Q4 revenue number is in jeopardy?

CMO: we can hit the revenue number

CEO: great!

CMO: but we'll just be kicking the can down the road

CEO: what do you mean?

CMO: you know how i've been doing those P&L deep dives with fred (CFO) to isolate why our contribution margin has been going down?

CEO: yes, but we've got big COGS improvements coming in '26 that will take that number up

CMO: unfortunately, my latest rev of the forecast has our marketing costs more than canceling out gains from COGS improvements. we can only lean on existing customers for so long. we've already been over-emailing and sms-ing our list, especially existing customers. i don't know how much longer that can last

CEO: so what do we do?

CMO: two words...brand reset. 4 parts: 1) data deep dive to understand the true state of our revenue, 2) right-size cost structure to match the reality, 3) build our content machine, 4) systematically hack away at ways to build that resilient revenue base

CEO: sounds horrible. gonna be the best worst thing ever

CMO: yup

CFO: Brand building is just burning money. Prove me wrong.

CMO: Five landmark studies about to wreck that theory.

CFO: Pics or it didn't happen.

CMO: The Ehrenberg-Bass Institute analyzed thousands of brands over decades. Found something wild. *slacks link* https://lnkd.in/gzCGDYcr

CFO: In the words of my good friend Ron Burgundy, "you know I don't speak Spanish."

CMO: Well, let me translate: Only 5% of potential customers are shopping right now. We're fighting everyone for that same 5%.

CFO: But those 5% convert.

CMO: At 3x the cost and much lower margin than organic buyers.

CFO: What about the other 95%?

CMO: Les Binet and Peter Field studied 50 years of financial data across 500+ brands. Here's the research https://lnkd.in/g7zEiXzN and a vid that breaks it down https://lnkd.in/gE_jnrEu

CFO: You keep using this word 'brand building.' I do not think it means what you think it means.

CMO: The fastest-growing brands all do the same thing: 60% brand building, 40% conversion tactics.

CFO: I'm gonna need to see more proof.

CMO: UCLA's Dominique Hanssens and Prof. dr. Koen Pauwels analyzed 10 years of data from 150 global brands. Here's the research https://lnkd.in/guRrkkvw and a vid breakdown https://lnkd.in/gmG6KuEG

CFO: Explain it to me like I'm five.

CMO: Direct link between brand building and future revenue growth. The data hits different.

CFO: Keep going...

CMO: Byron Sharp studied every major category globally. Found two things predict growth. Here's the research paper https://lnkd.in/gJgB5rYn and a quick vid recap https://lnkd.in/giEPYWuY

CFO: Hit me with the TL;DR.

CMO: Being remembered when people are ready to buy, and being available where they want to shop.

CFO: But how do we measure that?

CMO: James Hankins and Binet cracked that code analyzing digital behavior from 30,000 brands. Check the research https://lnkd.in/g5mevQyb and the whitepaper https://lnkd.in/gqihiqfp

CFO: Numbers or it didn't happen.

CMO: Digital behaviors predict future sales. When someone searches for our brand by name, the revenue per session is 2x higher and margin is much higher than direct purchases from ads.

CFO: Now that's the kind of data I like.

CMO: The numbers understood the assignment.

CFO: What's step one?

CMO: Track our key digital behaviors. Create content that drives those metrics.

CFO: The data hath spoken.

CMO: Welcome to the Brand side. We have statistically significant cookies.

CFO: As long as there's a 95% chance they're delicious.

Refactor Labs

Refactor Labs is a modern leadership advisory firm helping outliers and organizations lead through hard pivots. We specialize in resilience and reinvention, delivering remarkable experiences that thrill participants and build their courage + capacity for change.

Services:

🧢 Executive Coaching: 1:1 + small group sessions that unlock transformational growth through extended partnership.

🛠️ Participatory Workshops: Interactive seminars designed to learn and practice crucial skills for navigating complex transitions—storytelling, emotional intelligence, experimentation and more.

🎤 Keynote Talks: High energy presentations that challenges audiences to dream bigger and act bolder in the pursuit of excellence.

Clients:

Meta
Nielsen
Pinterest
Grubhub
Contenda
Coeus Ventures
Proctor & Gamble
Harmonic Message
Cornell SC Johnson College of Business

Executive Coach

Lunar Accel

Merit

Angel Investor, Mentor

Contenda

Angel Investor

13 Fund

Angel Philanthropist

Jason Shen

Write about business, technology, and culture for publications with numerous bylines in TechCrunch, Fast Company, and Vox. My posts on Medium have a combined 800k+ views.

Speak and teach at conferences and events on topics like gaming & esports, product management, entrepreneurship, talent development, and leadership. Since 2012, I've spoken on four separate continents (North Am, Europe, Asia, Australia) at places like Google, Pinterest, General Assembly, and Empower. My TED talk on the future of hiring has 4M views.

Support ambitious startup founders as an executive coach.

Resilience Expert

Facebook

Led product for public groups which connect 400M+ people everyday to the interests, people, and  communities they care most about, without barriers. Incubated a new product experience in FB Groups to millions of people.

Product Manager

Presidential Innovation Fellows Foundation

The Presidential Innovation Fellows (PIF) program was established by the White House in 2012 to attract top innovators into government, capable of tackling issues at the convergence of technology, policy, and process.

The PIF Foundation is a 501(c)3 organization established to support and advance the PIF program, drive innovation in the US government, and connect our 100+ alumni. Board members are elected by members to 2-year terms.

The Asian American Man Study

The Asian American Man Study a national survey of the experiences and beliefs of American men of East, Southeast, and South Asian descent. Our findings have appeared in The Atlantic, NBC Asian America, Vox, and Quartz, and has reached over 100,000 people on Medium. Over 1000 Asian men have been surveyed since our founding in 2015.

Jason has shared his research and personal experience as a first-generation Asian American at Amazon, Pinterest, Proctor & Gamble, and Nielsen.

Founder

Helping unconventional founders & execs lead through hard pivots · Author: THE PATH TO PIVOT · Uncle Iroh with a side of Genie · 3x venture-backed startup founder · 1st gen immigrant · ADHD · Meta + Etsy alum

Hi, I'm Jason. I'm an executive coach to outliers & organizations facing hard pivots.

But let's talk about you for a sec. I'm guessing you've landed your fair share of funding, promotions, and industry recognition.

But somewhere along that grind, you noticed you saw the world differently than your peers and those ahead of you. You discovered that achieving inside someone else's definition of success isn't a sweet as winning on your own terms.

But at the same time, you've realized that building a company, career, and creative life that's out of the ordinary can be daunting.

I get it.

As an executive coach and the founder of a leadership advisory firm Refactor Labs, I help outliers like you lead through hard pivots in business and life. 

Having built teams, products, and companies in consumer, B2B, and marketplaces from inception to post-IPO—I've probably seen the problems you're facing.

As a three time startup founder with two exits and one very humbling failure under my belt—I know the pressure of having to manage your psychology and lead your team in pressure-cooker moments.

And as an ADHD kid transplanted from Suzhou to Silicon Valley, I've felt the sting of rejection and the struggle to find community when you don't fit in.

That's why I do what I do.

My clients are VC-backed founders, agency owners, and senior executives. Outliers who want to express their unique talents in spite of a system that tells them to just fit in. Leaders who want to transform their organizations to navigate a new reality.

I work with you to power through those hard pivots to land that next big thing.

That's what I did for Kevin.

Kevin had a growing family and a successful career as a marketing leader, but was tired of feeling tired and burned out.

Together we charted a path for him to leave his pre-IPO startup and launch a successful agency that's quickly becoming the go-to messaging agency for B2B SaaS companies while supporting his family and his health.

And for Edmar.

Edmar was the founder and former CEO one of Brazil's most successful tech companies, but when we met, he was stuck in first gear without much momentum in any direction.

Together we helped him find joy in coding again, develop genuine relationships and a community of Bay Area technologists, and shaped his vision to launch an AI venture studio.

So that's what I do. Here are some ways I can help you:

1. The Outlier Advantage Email Course (free)
2. The Path to Pivot book ($)
3. 1:1 or Group Executive Coaching ($$)
4. Keynote presentation ($$$)

Shoot me a DM to learn more and explore further.

🌱 Jason Shen

You built the thing.

You wrote the first lines of code, made the first sale, hired the first employee. You were the company.

But now you're scaling. You have a team of 5, 25, 50.

The skills that got you here, the relentless doing, the hands-on control... they are becoming the bottleneck. You feel you "should" be more strategic, but you're uneasy letting go.

You look at your title:

CEO
CTO
COO

And you wonder if you're still the right person for the job.

Your challenge isn't to become a different person. It's to find your new point of leverage.

It's to graduate from being the best "doer" to being the most effective "enabler."

What's one task you're still holding onto that you know you need to hand off to scale your impact?

Jason 🧠 Shen

The Outlier Coach · Helping venture-backed founders build conviction and win *their* game. Author of 'The Path to Pivot' & 'Weirdly Brilliant' · Retired NCAA 🏆 gymnast

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